Docs 100 or BUST 8

[terrell]

lol. thanks, dave. consider me aptly slammed.

[Cheezer]

my vote is to dump Awabi. The designer decided to draw large block areas around tree and rough where there might be some grass a little higher that usual. Dr. Dave had a wide open shot no trees or bushes, just tall grass. No matter what club he hit including a pw and sw the ball would go five yds. and hit an invisible wall and it sounded like he hit a brick wall and the ball sails backwards 20 yds. After laying 22 he gave up and we dq'd our game and tourney.

DUMP THIS WORTHLESS COURSE.

[Larry_Warrilow]

i believe what the guys are saying about invisible obstacles even though this has been a rare event for myself. the only time i can remember hitting an unseen obstacle was off a par five tee at wagga wagga last october. even though there were plenty of trees around the tee, there was no canopy or other apparent obstructions (like a wire), yet my tee ball wound up 80 yards behind and right of the tee. on a course designed by one of the best ever, i had no visible explanation, and i graphically run all the bells and whistles.

if awaba is a wash-out it'll be a shame, because at champ, it has to be played very carefully from tee to green. my kind of track. lw

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[Larry_Warrilow]

as an adendum, on the old access tour, i was playing a champ level event at prairie dunes and got into a large area of tall grass that acted similarly, and it killed my entire event score. tall grass has been a very nasty item on a lot of recent apcds, where you have no idea as to what is going to happen. a lot of players can attest to the grove of trees to left side of the fairway at #1 mauna kea as a round killer, the woods down the hill left of #15 green at barton creek, and a couple of places at dorado beach where if you hit it through the dogleg you are on death row. gleneagles also has a great many horrifying rough deathtraps, and seemingly arbitrary unplayable areas that require a drop or retee to get free of.

if awaba is full of arbitrary [censored] zones then it may have to go. but let's see what the deal is first on an overall basis. lw

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[Cheezer]

Larry the deal is you are the only one who is not in favor up dumping Awabi.

[Larry_Warrilow]

G, i haven't had any problems with awaba in four rounds at champ. but i'm a careful player off the tee, and while i've found plenty of rough, i haven't found a lie that has had deathrow properties. you guys may well be right, the place may be chock full of unplayable areas, but let's check it out on a systematic basis. art patscheck's walnut grove was a tough nut full of molasses-like deep rough where you could hardly move the ball, but is perfectly playable (even at champ) if you aren't tempted to be a hero. lw

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[Dr_Dave]

Ya know Larry, I think you make a good point about seeing what the deal is on an overall basis, but in reverse. Instead of a course being added to the list arbitrarily, lets see what the general consensus is before the course is added. That way we will at least have a list of good playable courses.

There are way to many courses out there that are great without debating over a few questionable ones. I'm not overly thrilled about taking the time to set up tournaments that people enjoy playing, just to find that one of the courses used is tricked out or has unreal design problems.

[Larry_Warrilow]

doc, my original philosophy as to adding files to the tour course list was exactly as you have remarked, and would have been tightly restricted. however i now think that warren's policy of adding the maximum number of files on demand is for the best. by far the vast majority of the new apcd files work just fine, and those few that have serious problems will be reported as the players encounter them. some few of those problem files will be unusable on tour, but others will not be any more problematic than files we have been dealing with for years.

while i'm sure not clairvoyant, the apcd courses i've chosen for my own weekly event for 35 weeks have been architecturally sound, and i've played even the new ones myself without mishap enough times that i know they will be successful venues. that's not to say that when players report problems on new apcds that i'm going to ignore the warnings. i just want to see for myself. lw

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[BruceWallace]

doc, my original philosophy as to adding files to the tour course list was exactly as you have remarked, and would have been tightly restricted. however i now think that warren's policy of adding the maximum number of files on demand is for the best. by far the vast majority of the new apcd files work just fine, and those few that have serious problems will be reported as the players encounter them. some few of those problem files will be unusable on tour, but others will not be any more problematic than files we have been dealing with for years.

while i'm sure not clairvoyant, the apcd courses i've chosen for my own weekly event for 35 weeks have been architecturally sound, and i've played even the new ones myself without mishap enough times that i know they will be successful venues. that's not to say that when players report problems on new apcds that i'm going to ignore the warnings. i just want to see for myself. lw

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What do we have coming for the next no requal tournament, Larry? Sorry to drift here, but I am looking forward to it.

And, keep in mind, I intend to get better at champ mode.

[Tresclub]

Unless a course has been specifically requested, before I add one, I try to wait until it has received a favorable "user rating" over on Links Corner.

[ErnieB]

Awaba Forest received very good marks at LC (39 out of 50 votes were Ace or Eagle), and is a fairly easy course to play (if you stay out of the tall grass) and quite frankly, Lions Municipal Golf Course (which was mercifully left unrated except for the official review) is more worthy of getting the axe than Awaba Forest.

I don't want to see any courses excluded and wonder if there is an easy way for Mark to write a routine to link the tour creation area to all the available courses at LC.

[Dr_Dave]

I'm pretty sure no one wants to go into the grass, but one shot shouldn't mean the end of a tournament. As you know there are many trees at Awaba that overhang the fairway, the designer blocked the overhanging tree instead of following the contour of the tree. My ball hit the invisible wall outside the tree dimensions and it bounced into the tall grass. That was the it, I could not get out of the grass and 22 shots later I gave up.

A well designed course should also include the obstacles and rough areas not just the fairways. They can keep all the courses as far as I'm concerned, I keep a list of poorly designed courses for my records. My thread was merely letting people know that I re-created the tournament based on the problems I encountered which others witnessed.

[ErnieB]

I'm pretty sure no one wants to go into the grass, but one shot shouldn't mean the end of a tournament. As you know there are many trees at Awaba that overhang the fairway, the designer blocked the overhanging tree instead of following the contour of the tree. My ball hit the invisible wall outside the tree dimensions and it bounced into the tall grass. That was the it, I could not get out of the grass and 22 shots later I gave up.

A well designed course should also include the obstacles and rough areas not just the fairways. They can keep all the courses as far as I'm concerned, I keep a list of poorly designed courses for my records. My thread was merely letting people know that I re-created the tournament based on the problems I encountered which others witnessed.

I agree with everything except the bolded portion of your post. The APCD does not allow a designer to "follow the contour" of a tree or a piece of tall grass, but it will allow you to set the probability of collision or more accurately a percentage of effect of collision, which I believe defaults at 100%. It's been over a year since I opened the APCD so I'm probably full of it and someone will soon correct me I'm sure

I have a sizeable collection going back to day 1 at Links Corner stashed on my external drive (almost 1300 courses). I'll probably never get around to playing all of the good ones, but I too have a list of the ones I know I won't play.

[Larry_Warrilow]

all i can say about overhanging tree canopies is that i long ago stopped risking lofted short iron shots from underneath them unless i was pretty sure i was well towards the front of the overhang. even then i have still managed to hit the canopy on many occassions. generally [at champ] i hit some sort of low knock-down shot if i even suspect that i might have a canopy problem, even if the green condition is not receptive. there is no constitutional right to a clear shot when under a tree whether you can actually see the canopy or not. it may not be fair, but that's the way it is.

outside of OB, trees are considered by golf architects to be the most punitive of hazards because they occupy all three dimensions, and as a result should be used very sparingly as tactical terrain obstacles. i avoid them like the plague, and have become very careful when playing close to canopies, just as in real life. lw

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[MasterMontgomery]

When the course first came out, you could hit a drive in the middle
of the fairway, and the caddie would give you a putter. It was pulled an then
re-released. I think it is great, and this kind of problem should get back to the
designer, so he or she can decide what to do if anything. I will try and send an
PM, but it looks grim



Doug